In fact, by the time I was job hunting for work that style was considered very much William’s domain, though the richly rendered very labour intensive illustration style of animation was a trend throughout the early 80’s for several animation studios.
For the newer, smaller studios the trend was toward strong graphic design and a leaner (due to smaller budgets) more experimental approach, that was put to test on the new form of pop promos.
Fascinating! - I have to admit my ambition was to work for Richard Williams but it never happened, much as Tony White says, fate pulls you in other directions.
I made 2 graduation films at St Martins (literally around the corner from William’s studio in Soho Square) both 7 minutes long and one was a collaboration with a former student in my year who directed it and designed all the backgrounds and where I did all the animation in a cross hatched style and used William’s “4 frame cross dissolve” technique to reduce the amount of work for what was a solo effort.
Crazy when I think about it now but it didn’t get me a job there…lol
Thanks for sharing all these fascinating memories! It's wild that the job at the Williams studio never happened despite everything. Are either of your graduation films online anywhere?
Here’s a taster of the collab’ short, based on a print by the Austrian fantasy illustrator Max Klinger - this is the only bit of “full animation” in the film intended to add a sense of dynamism - the rest was achieved using the in-camera cross dissolve technique.
I reconstructed this recently using actual cels from the film which luckily I retained along with those for every shot.
I recently managed to transfer what I have available to.a digital format so I’ve posted them to my Vimeo channel if you’re interested in seeing them.
Unfortunately St Martins lost the film negative and audio track + a great deal of the background and animation artwork for my grad film - an adaptation of a Ray Bradbury short story that they entered in competition at Zagreb - so all I have is a VHS copy.
The other film was funded by Greater London Arts and is now kept in the BFI archives - what I have is a U-Matic to VHS copy that is slightly better quality.
When I read these interviews, I feel like I'm actually there during the action was happening! Richard Williams slow craftmanship definitely shows in Tony White's accounts which would be reflected in the notorious production hell of The Thief and the Cobbler.
Thank you, Samuel! We felt the same way talking to Tony -- it was like a portal back to another time. And you're very right about Thief. Tony has a bit more to say about that in the second part, which should be out in the next couple of weeks, so stay tuned!
Oh my god, this is such a cool interview! Absolutely cannot wait for the next part. The Williams studio is so fascinating, and I really love hearing the stories of real animation veterans like this. Also very interesting how much these guys liked ukiyo-e! La plus change...
Kind of not surprised Williams was expecting that much unpaid overtime ^^' The demands he was placing remind me of some of Miyazaki's comments in Starting Point about the animators he worked with on Heidi. There's something both enthralling and repulsive about these kinds of high-control-group-like animation studios, with their charismatic figureheads pushing their people to sacrifice everything for the cause of animation. The allure of that fantasy of creating something so amazing that it pushes the limits of what we can do, set against the horror of this kind of work culture becoming normative and sending people to early deaths. And then some part of you goes 'if only I wasn't so adhd/fatigued all the time, I could put in the 12 hour days it takes to make Great Art as well', as if art is purely a function of how much you sacrifice.
Still, evidently it worked out pretty well for White at least. I'm glad he remembers those days fondly. It's funny to think I've probably cycled past where Williams's animation studio used to be a good few times, without even realising it.
Ah, thank you so much! Really kind. We were super happy to get the chance to talk to Tony about the past, and these studios we've only read about. He brought so much great perspective -- and his life story is amazing.
As for overwork culture, there are definitely serious problems there. Layers of problems, really.
Williams was a TV guy, as was Miyazaki back in the '70s (although he didn't have all that much creative/management control until Conan), and TV deadlines were brutally unforgiving. Even unambitious animation could be hard to make on time. Nizo Yamamoto remembered working 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day on very bland, cheap-looking TV anime during the '70s, before he linked up with Miyazaki and Takahata. All too often, overwork was the norm for artists in TV.
When you add the ambition of someone like Williams into the mix, things get even more complicated. On the one hand, the average TV team was already overworking on projects that weren't very fulfilling. Trying harder -- doing work they could believe in -- came at a high cost. There was usually no chance of easing the deadline pressure from clients, sponsors and networks, so the only way to do *better* work was to work more and harder. And that's definitely how Williams approached A Christmas Carol (among other projects).
So, you end up with a murky situation. Do you overwork and dislike the end product, or overwork *even more* and make something you think has value? It's a major, long-running problem for animation studios in capitalist countries.
Williams was a very flawed boss, for sure -- the sabotaging of The Thief and the Cobbler was, arguably more than anything else, the end result of his own lack of business ability and his debilitating perfectionism (redoing scenes again and again and again). But his studio also helped to save the principles of traditional animation, and he gave ambitious artists like Tony a place to make films that they still believe in, more than 50 years later. Really complicated stuff.
Anyway, thanks very much for the comment! Lots to think about here.
In fact, by the time I was job hunting for work that style was considered very much William’s domain, though the richly rendered very labour intensive illustration style of animation was a trend throughout the early 80’s for several animation studios.
For the newer, smaller studios the trend was toward strong graphic design and a leaner (due to smaller budgets) more experimental approach, that was put to test on the new form of pop promos.
Fascinating! - I have to admit my ambition was to work for Richard Williams but it never happened, much as Tony White says, fate pulls you in other directions.
I made 2 graduation films at St Martins (literally around the corner from William’s studio in Soho Square) both 7 minutes long and one was a collaboration with a former student in my year who directed it and designed all the backgrounds and where I did all the animation in a cross hatched style and used William’s “4 frame cross dissolve” technique to reduce the amount of work for what was a solo effort.
Crazy when I think about it now but it didn’t get me a job there…lol
Thanks for sharing all these fascinating memories! It's wild that the job at the Williams studio never happened despite everything. Are either of your graduation films online anywhere?
Here’s a taster of the collab’ short, based on a print by the Austrian fantasy illustrator Max Klinger - this is the only bit of “full animation” in the film intended to add a sense of dynamism - the rest was achieved using the in-camera cross dissolve technique.
I reconstructed this recently using actual cels from the film which luckily I retained along with those for every shot.
https://vimeo.com/323454944
https://vimeo.com/323454944
I recently managed to transfer what I have available to.a digital format so I’ve posted them to my Vimeo channel if you’re interested in seeing them.
Unfortunately St Martins lost the film negative and audio track + a great deal of the background and animation artwork for my grad film - an adaptation of a Ray Bradbury short story that they entered in competition at Zagreb - so all I have is a VHS copy.
The other film was funded by Greater London Arts and is now kept in the BFI archives - what I have is a U-Matic to VHS copy that is slightly better quality.
Thanks very much -- that clip with the shotgun looks great!
This was a delight. The Hokusai film is so worth watching. So glad to have had this. Thankyou.
Thank you, Jason! Glad you liked the interview -- and glad we could introduce you to Hokusai!
When I read these interviews, I feel like I'm actually there during the action was happening! Richard Williams slow craftmanship definitely shows in Tony White's accounts which would be reflected in the notorious production hell of The Thief and the Cobbler.
Thank you, Samuel! We felt the same way talking to Tony -- it was like a portal back to another time. And you're very right about Thief. Tony has a bit more to say about that in the second part, which should be out in the next couple of weeks, so stay tuned!
Oh my god, this is such a cool interview! Absolutely cannot wait for the next part. The Williams studio is so fascinating, and I really love hearing the stories of real animation veterans like this. Also very interesting how much these guys liked ukiyo-e! La plus change...
Kind of not surprised Williams was expecting that much unpaid overtime ^^' The demands he was placing remind me of some of Miyazaki's comments in Starting Point about the animators he worked with on Heidi. There's something both enthralling and repulsive about these kinds of high-control-group-like animation studios, with their charismatic figureheads pushing their people to sacrifice everything for the cause of animation. The allure of that fantasy of creating something so amazing that it pushes the limits of what we can do, set against the horror of this kind of work culture becoming normative and sending people to early deaths. And then some part of you goes 'if only I wasn't so adhd/fatigued all the time, I could put in the 12 hour days it takes to make Great Art as well', as if art is purely a function of how much you sacrifice.
Still, evidently it worked out pretty well for White at least. I'm glad he remembers those days fondly. It's funny to think I've probably cycled past where Williams's animation studio used to be a good few times, without even realising it.
Ah, thank you so much! Really kind. We were super happy to get the chance to talk to Tony about the past, and these studios we've only read about. He brought so much great perspective -- and his life story is amazing.
As for overwork culture, there are definitely serious problems there. Layers of problems, really.
Williams was a TV guy, as was Miyazaki back in the '70s (although he didn't have all that much creative/management control until Conan), and TV deadlines were brutally unforgiving. Even unambitious animation could be hard to make on time. Nizo Yamamoto remembered working 10 a.m. to 10 p.m. every day on very bland, cheap-looking TV anime during the '70s, before he linked up with Miyazaki and Takahata. All too often, overwork was the norm for artists in TV.
When you add the ambition of someone like Williams into the mix, things get even more complicated. On the one hand, the average TV team was already overworking on projects that weren't very fulfilling. Trying harder -- doing work they could believe in -- came at a high cost. There was usually no chance of easing the deadline pressure from clients, sponsors and networks, so the only way to do *better* work was to work more and harder. And that's definitely how Williams approached A Christmas Carol (among other projects).
So, you end up with a murky situation. Do you overwork and dislike the end product, or overwork *even more* and make something you think has value? It's a major, long-running problem for animation studios in capitalist countries.
Williams was a very flawed boss, for sure -- the sabotaging of The Thief and the Cobbler was, arguably more than anything else, the end result of his own lack of business ability and his debilitating perfectionism (redoing scenes again and again and again). But his studio also helped to save the principles of traditional animation, and he gave ambitious artists like Tony a place to make films that they still believe in, more than 50 years later. Really complicated stuff.
Anyway, thanks very much for the comment! Lots to think about here.